Diesel (vented) Heaters

[sternwake]

With no horse in this race, and no experience on such heaters, I offer only this:

A 40 page thread on Webasto Knockoffs from The Samba's Vanagon Subforum. 

Started in the summer of 2018 with a post as recent as today.



https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto...b8cd490bf0

[tx2sturgis]

No worry 1st I'll never be where it's that cold...

{snip}

Looks like you believe propane heaters never fail. I have a 5 mile bridge I'll make you a killer deal on. I'd rather have a diesel smell from a leak than to be dead by gas or explosion but it's your call & mine what we use.

People with any kind of heater onboard an RV or van will very often camp somewhere where it can get cold, because, duh....they have a heater. Maybe you have never had to crawl outside your rig when the windchill is dangerously cold...but I have. I dont care where and how you camp, I'm only answering the OP and providing the very best information I can. If it does not suit you in your situation, then ignore it. 

I know propane furnaces can fail...I never said they cant so please dont put words in my mouth. If I believed that I would be a fool. BUT>..here is the important difference when it comes to RV furnaces: They were installed at the factory, and there will be a propane detector nearby, installed by the factory, and the commonly failing or wearing parts for most typical RV furnaces ARE available on the road, as well as online, for furnaces as old as 30-50 years old.

I think you also assume (again incorrectly) that I dont know how they work...wrong again...I DO. And unless the heat exchanger is cracked, corroded, or leaking, there should be no exhaust or combustion moisture in the living space during operation. But propane fittings can and occasionally DO leak. I get that. But RV furnaces are simple to operate and relatively safe. Certainly safe enough to keep as a backup heat source, because I GAR-UN-TEE that a user-installed chinese bunk heater is going to experience a failure sooner or later...and it wont be on a warm afternoon...if will be in the middle of a dark and very cold night when the heater is working hard.

All I'm saying is, keep spare parts handy, and have a backup heat source...engine heat or propane or whatever. Even if the OP removed the original RV furnace, this still leaves the water heater and the cooking appliance (range or cooktop etc) that are hooked up to propane...so the risks associated with propane do not go away just because the furnace is removed.

It's not religion, or faith, or guessing, it's real life experience with diesel powered bunk heaters.

[Gr8ful]

Maybe you missed what I said last line in post 8 "but it's your call & mine what we use." Propane almost killed me, burned down my cabin & almost killed 4 friends so I have plenty of experience in propane. How many diesel bunk heaters have blown houses off their foundations. I'm just saying what I'll do & if you choose to sleep while propane is open use a detector, common sense & be careful. Looks like you assume too much. No more, no less.

[Scott7022]

I don’t have a dog in this fight either and great link Sternwake. Those Westie van types are a special breed. They, the vans, are all over the country of Georgia and they are the coveted 4x4 synchros. I actually ran the numbers to see if buying and exporting could be viable biz endeavor.
Anyway...

What I can help with. So you live in America and speak American. Gas for the rest of the world is propane, or Natural Gas. Benzene is fuel that most people put in there cars. Diesel is diesel with a really big asterix. Truma Heaters/boilers etc think Dometic brand but in Europe. They are some prime units. Best in some peoples minds. They make heaters and boilers in electric/ propane and diesel. My buddy Mark builds expedition campers and he uses them. The propane version. He is a prime distributor for them in Canada. He can’t get a diesel Combi 4 heater/boiler. He buys thousands of dollars worth of product and they won’t ship him one even for experimentation. Why? North American diesel sucks. It is dirty and causes problems for the unit that converts to problems for the distributor and a bad reputation. Considering the company just did a huge push into the expensive class A market for water heaters they don’t want to risk their reputation. This was straight from the companies engineer.

I know as I wanted the combi and was bugging mark to get one for me. I didn’t care about the price and I was even willing to add a separate tank and use ultra clean kerosene or... no dice. I am in Europe often and could buy and/or get it sent here but I changed my mind

Carrying two or three fuel sources is a very valid point. No Truma tech would touch it. No parts etc etc.

The issue of dirty fuel caused me to rethink my heater stratagem. Almost everyone in the Alberta oil patch uses supplemental heaters in vehicles. It gets down to -40. Driving to work is dangerous and wrapped in a sleeping bag uncomfortable. Many of them use Propex heaters mounted outside of the cab. These use propane but the units are outside of the people area. Intake outside, exhaust fumes outside, and propane lines outside. Only the warmed air gets blown into the cab. So if you have a leak it goes into the outside world.

The issue of getting blown up. I have experience with this. Is mitigated as the unit is isolated and all lines and regulators, and equipment are also isolated from the interior. Propane is heavy and so it flows like water, into spaces and voids inside the build/vehicle and accumulates. Then the spark happens and the gas becomes excited, all at once, and baths you in it’s glorious energy.

It’s doing what it was designed to do. Only an idiot gets angry at something doing what it was engineered to do. Like people who keep wild cats as pets and then get angry when it eats a member of the household.

Sure you can drive to warmth. We can argue semantics of reliability. We can fret over the various danger bits of the beast. We can move to Europe and all use Truma. Many of these arguments are on many forums propane gas bottle filling and availability is many many pages on Expo forums...usually argued by retards that will never take their vehicle out of America. Never mind North America.

The OP question was benzene/diesel heaters. Info please. Diesel is safer but I think based on info here and posted links reliability is an issue. Benzene is less safe but cleaner and adds a little more reliability. Insurance and certification may become an issue going the benzene route. If you ever are targeted at a border or other for a vehicle safety check. It may become a problem.

An alternative A:
I hate propane. Never want it. Run away run away.

Magnadyne and other manufacturers make race car heaters. These are heaters that tap into your vehicles water system and divert some to a unit that has fins and a blower assembly inside the main cabin space. You wake up stick your toe outside think wow it is cold. Push your remote start. Wait ten minutes and hit the fan switch on the heater. Five minutes later you are toasty warm. Kill the engine. Thermal siphoning moves heated water and you have several gallons, and a big chunk of hot metal. Freeze proof and as safe as it gets. Yes staying naked walking about toasty all night is an issue, as is living in deep minus conditions.

Alternative B:
I don’t really like propane but, Iam not an idiot.

Spare tire tank or smaller tank stuck up inside the frame rails outside the vehicle. High pressure regulator on tank. Line to low pressure regulator mounted near area warmed by engine exhaust system. Regulator mounted correctly so water doesn’t get inside to freeze, also out of living area. Swinging in the breeze. Propex marine grade (green unit) heater mounted to the underside of vehicle. Exhaust for the unit routed away from open windows. Intake mounted away from contaminated air potentials. Hot air from the unit routed into the floor of the living space. Thermal dynamics will take over from there.

Propane and CO detector mounted in living area, low and a change the unit alarm scheduled on your cell phone or maintenance book. These units have a lifespan. Most people never change them. Hence retard tag.
Propane is handy. Outdoor cooking or a self contained fire pit outside when your not allowed. Being able to adjust the flame to super low on an outside metal fire pit under an awning is a great luxury. Propane is cheap and easy to use, monitor, and refill. A 1000 watt pure-sign inverter generator converted to propane is an awesome backup. For when everything goes for a shit.

Just things to think about. I took a deep dive down this rabbit hole. Watched all the tech videos, British guy is a favorite, running heaters and showers with EGR valves and the like. I think there is a reason while these are all in the lab and not in the field. I’d personally love a gas unit. But I hate small bottle propane cooking. You run out just when the scallops and scalloped potatoes are done and you need ten minutes to put a crust on the four pounds of King Salmon sitting on the grill. So I want a large bottle propane system. One fuel source for comfort glamping and the other for life support. You won’t die, even at minus thirty, in a vehicle that is insulated, if you have a couple of candles, warm dry bedding, and a body without a preexisting condition.

What many retards do is install a benzene/diesel heater into the cab area. Then intake vent and exhaust thru the floor as shown. It starts snowing, temperature drops. They turn on the heater. Click the next video on YouTube, pour a glass of adult beverage. Snow piles around car/van/ambulance. Snow reaches 3/4 height around tires. Where is this air and exhaust going? Where is the fresh air pickup coming from? More snow and a few more adult beverages, seasoned with YouTube greatness. Snow over the tires, wind dies down. Warm van exterior sealing the snow against the sides. Warm air meets cold air under the chassis. Exhaust air circulating in the now semi enclosed area under the van. They didn’t need a propane/Co detector as they don’t have the nasty dangerous propane. Night night, sweet dreams, rest knowing it’s a pleasant death.

I guess my point to the OP and those reading in the future. Nothing is without risk. Even two candles in a confined space over a long time can prove deadly. Add to that sleeping creatures and yourself. Yes, smart ones vent the area. But...Gremlins patiently wait for indiscretions. I see a million van builds without vented propane enclosures. Bottles under seats, rolling about in the floor, or “secured” with a bungee. Nothing ever happens. Mr buddy heaters are fine. Blah blah. Sharing my humanity disdain. I personally know people that have died in their car after the exhaust pipe got obstructed and allowed fumes to enter the vehicle. They left it running thinking pipe hot snow will melt. I am assuming. The three of them passed with blankets in the trunk, left unused.

Think about the system as a whole. Ask professionals. See what the certified manufactures do. Safety standards and the like are for a reason. Make a decision based on previous practices and not this should be fine.


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[Shadowmoss]

I have a quick question based on info in Scott's post about local diesel fuel being dirty.  I'm not in the market yet, just pondering options.  I know there are fuel filters in vehicles for a reason.  Would putting an inline filter on the fuel line to the diesel heater help, or is the 'dirty' chemical and finer particles issue such that it wouldn't make it clean 'enough'.  I personally would be looking for something to use in temps above 20F, my days of lower temps are behind me.  I do like the idea of having a second one in my back pocket, and the prices on the Chinese heaters are low enough to do that.  This is all just a mental exercise for me at this point.

[Blacktank]

here in the good ol' usa,as well as most places,diesel comes in different grades,the farm tractor diesel is not as refined as gas station diesel,sure an old truck driver that knows more than me will reply

same with gasoline/petro,here on the left coast we have high ethanol fuel,try to start a fire with it and it goes boom,mostly grain alcohol or moonshine if you will,attracts water so every 3-6 months i have to pop the top of the carb and clean out the ethanol gel

[Gr8ful]

Corn sqeezins should never been used in fuel. My family & my wifes had a much better use for them & I've never made any but haave 2 stills. What you save at the pump you lose in milage. They took cetane out of diesel & raised the price so I add additive & 2 stroke oil when I fill up. Many countries use coal oil but not here. The old joke is diesels will burn anything if you gring it small enough to get thru the injectors. I do have a LP catolytic heater that Bob wells raves about. Havent installed it but it was 1/2 price on Amazon & I'm a sucker for a deal. would use it as long as I was awake. The ambo will heat very easy. My dad ran heavy equipment & while working in the woods won a guys paycheck. International made a diesel with spark plugs & gasoline on one side to start easier. You flipped a lever to lower the compression, hit the starter & the gas side started then when it warmed up you flipped the lever the otherway which switch the diesel side on. He bet the guy he could put a plug wire in each ear & 2 in his mouth & it would still run which it did because it was already switched to the diesel side. Won a months pay. Good thing no on flipped the lever. Cat engines had a pony motor the started then used it to start the mail diesel engine. People think jet fuel is what thhey want to race with. JetA is basiclly kerosene. Amazing what people believe.

[Scott7022]

I am not an expert on diesel heaters by any metric. I am just passing on what the real expert at Truma sent my friend Mark. The official Truma position, also sent in the same email; ...the burning process is not clean enough to meet the stringent emissions required under California Prop (I don’t remember number,) therefore we made the decision not to include our diesel powered products within the North American market. You can of course instal the propane/electric Combi 4. It has...blah blah blah.

Makes no sense that a Canadian retailer can’t sell them in Canada hence the further clarification on fuel in the body of the letter prior to the official PDF attachment. Doesn’t make sense Texas can’t buy them either. Loads of products can’t ship to the nanny state.

I don’t know much about bunker fuels. Just experience in the military and on boats using diesels. I owned a Volkswagen diesel bug. Best touring car I ever owned. I flashed it and saved the original 1999 programming code to a flash drive and on my computer. I got phenomenal mileage. I returned from Africa in 2001 and took it for a service and oil change as it had been sitting for two years and it got really shitty milage. Three tanks till I remembered my original saved program. Reflashed the computer with the old saved files and. Yup great milage again. Thing had 600,000 kilometers on it when I sold it. Lol. Never had an injector issue or anything.

I will leave the bunker oil discussion for those that burnt loads of dinosaurs here on the forum. From diesel forums and posts I understand there are some issues and differences with North American diesel and Euro Diesel. Hence why certain engines that are tried a true, and used in millions of vehicles in Europe and Scandinavia aren’t available to North American market. I don’t want to start a silly patriotic argument defending yankee diesel as I’ve seen on other forums. Kinda stupid in my opinion. Not sure how, why, or what these differences would impact a diesel heater.

For me personally. I decided to go outside human area mounted propane for two reasons. Fuel source. Carrying two fuels not three. Three fuel sources just sounded stupid, and as these degrade overtime I figured less futz was better. I smelled a high end, same brand burning both fuels. Propane had zero residual odor to my nose. So my good friend the wolf would probably be happier with me not stinking up his hood.


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[GypsyDogs]

A few points of clarity.  lol
Wow- I really opened a can of worms with this one...

I have not tested the factory installed furnace yet— considering the other things/systems that are semi or non functional or Cletus repaired, I have been hesitant.. do ya blame me?? If you see a fireball from the south, the furnace worked Really well in Single-use-mode. Lolol
(I do not believe the onboard Suburban heater exhausts water into the living area- but I know the propane stove and my little Buddy heater Do)

I knew hardly anything about the diesel heaters other than there are a few varieties- ranging from omg$ to cheepchineeese.. 

And I had not seen a thread here on these little beasties, so I figured ask the smarter than me crowd for feedback. And it could benefit the whole group.  Someone may need to make the decision between this and a Buddy heater- due to cost..

I thank all of you for your input, feedback, thoughts and knowledge-  and I hope this leads others to make their own well-informed decisions based on facts and real world experiences and accumulated information. 

I knew I could count on y’all to provide answers!

[Gr8ful]

Bob wells recomends these as there's no open flame & vlaims Big Buddy heaters won't last. I did buy one at 1/2 price but will not sleep with the rank on & with the diesel I just tap off the fuel tank so no cans or different fuel & it will heat the rig or preheat the engine which I do as I'm very good to my diesels but the have them in gasoline also. Camco 57341 Olympian Wave-6 6000 BTU LP Gas Catalytic Heater
Camco 57341 Olympian Wave-6 6000 BTU LP Gas Catalytic Heater